Question from a reader:
“I have had a little situation that has been puzzling me lately. There’s this girl that I have been friends with for over a year and I feel as if I’m getting closer to her. I was at her place just a couple weeks ago… and even though nothing happened, it was just the two of us!
I mean, that’s progress right?
She was sitting on the opposite side of the couch so I couldn’t really have any physical contact. Just last week I invited her to lunch and we’ve had a fun conversation… as opposed to the serious one we had a few weeks ago.
I am trying to make myself stand out here! I want to attract her, but I want to reduce my chances of being rejected. So I invited her to this a free show that’s happening nearby and I’m hoping she’ll say yes. What are some little things that I can do when we hang out to make it seem more like we’re on a date?
Should I go have dinner with her?
How should I behave without crossing any lines?
I already established that I’m a friend and I don’t want things to be awkward if she rejects me. I could really use any advice!”
My answer on the next page…
Getting out of the friends zone:
I always say things straight, so brace yourself!
You’re in the friends zone. She might like you… but you’re still in the friends zone.
You’re acting like the stereotypical nice guy that starts learning about all this stuff and doesn’t know what to do with girls. That’s GREAT! Why? Because the prescription is simple and it’s been done hundreds of times before. (Hey, it’s easier when you have similar problems to everyone else… you just use the same solution as everyone else)
The Nice Guy Syndrome
What indicates the “nice guy” syndrome that is preventing you from attracting girls and having success:
– “I have been working on a situation with a girl for a little over a year” – ONE YEAR?! Either you’re friends with someone… or you’re not.
– “She sat on the opposite side of the couch so I wasn’t able to kino”. – You ask her to come closer, you move over there… you make things happen! I have had COUNTLESS girls sit further away because they are shy… So you say: “Come sit here” and they are happy to oblige.
– “I’m trying to stand out” – This is going to screw you over. Don’t think about this. Either you stand out or you don’t.
– “I’m trying to attract her” – Whenever you actively try to attract someone, it does the opposite. (It’s messed up, but it’s true. Don’t confuse going after what you want with attracting someone though.)
– “I want to reduce my chances of rejection” – Holy BAD mindset batman! Don’t be scared of rejection. You have to embrace it. And she’s a friend for a year… how can she possibly reject you now?! Instead, you should be thinking: “I’m going to do this super cool thing and if she joins… that’s cool. If she doesn’t, then that’s OK because there are others that will join… and if they don’t, then i’m going to have FUN doing it alone” (And then you’ll meet people there)
– “What are things that I can do to make it seem more like a date?” – AHHHHHHHH, the trick is to NOT make it seem like a date. Dates are awkward and no one likes them. Avoid dates. She won’t like you more if it feels like a date.
– “Without crossing any lines” – This is the typical “nice guy” syndrome at 100% power. If you’re scared and worried about crossing lines, you’re not coming from a place of confidence and power. Instead, you’re coming from a place of fear & insecurity. (none of these will attract women)
– “Don’t want things to be awkward for if she rejects me” – AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH nice guy syndrome. She can’t reject you, you can only reject yourself. Embrace awkwardness, embrace being bold, embrace risks and change your mindset.
Alright, we really care about your success and the reason I wrote all this is because in the end, we really do want you to succeed…. so don’t take it personally. I was exactly like this before (kind of) and so were many (nearly all) guys on here.
First, read Double Your Dating by David DeAngelo. He talks about the “Wussy” persona that is not attractive to girls and presents this whole ‘nice guy’ thing wayyy better than I can.
It’s a quick read (like 70 pages or so?) and it should drastically change your mindset.
After that, read “Models” by Mark Manson… this guy really knows where it’s at. (But be careful, he’s going to present some more advanced stuff in there that you aren’t really ready to use at the moment… read it anyways.
At this point, you should have enough information to last you 2-3 months.
From here, it’s going to be “go out, go out and go out some more”. Find a guy that will go out with you for the express purpose of being social. That, above anything else, will help you become the man that you probably want to be.
Last, but certainly not least, you have to take a break from ‘trying to get this girl’ and go after other girls as “practice”. Once you’ve gotten enough practice (developed yourself as an attractive guy), then “getting” this girl will be a completely different ball game.
Every time you go out and approach other girls, you’re improving your chances with this specific girl.
Of course, the catch-22 is that you’ll realize that when you meet other girls, this one doesn’t seem as important anymore… and that’s kind of the point. That’s when she’ll be attracted to you and start chasing you. If you get started now… it might take a year, maybe 2… but you’ll get there. Who knows, maybe you’re a super fast guy and it will only take 6 months.
Once again, I hope you take all of this in a positive way. You might not be used to things being pointed out in a very direct manner (no one really does this in normal day-to-day society) but I do it because I want you to succeed as fast as possible and pretending to solve your situation without addressing the underlying issues isn’t going to do anything.
Just know, nearly EVERYONE enters this with the nice guy syndrome… and because it’s so common, you already have thousands of guys that have gone through the same journey as you. (Therefore everything is already laid out in front of you… you just have to follow the path)
What was your worst nice guy experience like?
Oh man, I have some great stories. The most generic Nice Guy one started with a guy I met on tinder. Before we even met he sent me a long message detailing how he "really wanted a friend" and if things didn't work out romantically he still wanted to talk to me, etc, which was nice. For the first few days or so he was really mellow and liked talking about class and college. We got along fine, I wasn't feeling sparks but he was nice and I wanted to be friends. Then he started constantly talking about sex and his ex-gf and how she was a "nympho" and he had a super high sex drive and wow I was so hot. I told him I wasn't that into talking about sex with someone I hadn't met and he cooled off. But the next day he was super pissy. When I finally asked about it, he told me he was upset because last night (when he was talking about fucking his ex) he was clearly depressed and I didn't pick up on it. He then told me I was an idiot because guys only talk about their ex when they're depressed so it was really obvious, I was just a complete moron. He ended it by saying he didn't want to talk to me anymore. I apologized and said if he was really depressed I'd still be willing to help if he changed his mind. 5 seconds later he messages back, "hey. I've changed my mind, I am really depressed and you're the only one I want to talk to rn." Thinking he needed a friend I messaged back "Okay, what do you wanna talk about? How can I help?" and he FLIPPED OUT. I got page after page of text screeching about how I should be flattered he still wanted to talk to me and all I could do was ask him how HE felt? Was I too dumb to come up with a subject by myself? He was depressed! How dare I ask him if he wanted help! When I didn't respond for a full day, he blocked me and I actually was relieved. The end.
Do women encourage nice guy behaviour?
Nice behavior will always be encouraged.
People typically reward nice behavior by being even nicer to you and doing nice things for you as well.
The problem is that in many people's minds "niceness" should be rewarded with "attraction" or "lust" or "romance" or "sexual favors."
When really if you're nice to me I'm simply going to say thank you and maybe remember to bake you some cookies or something.
This is why men and women have to provide the "sexy" and the "niceness."
The sexy makes me want to fxck my SO.
The consideration makes me want to bake cookies for them.
Both together make me feel "madly in love."
Because there are plenty of men who I find attractive who I wouldn't waste a modicum of energy cooking dinner for because they're assholes who don't deserve.
And then there are sexy and considerate men who could "get it" and also get a nice warm meal.
And then there are men who are "only nice" who I feel inspired to do nice things for; however they don't inspire any sexual attraction from me.
How do you be a nice guy without being a nice guy?
By genuinely doing nice things without having an ulterior motive.
Women what is your worst nice guy experience?
My only (best) friend throughout college.
He never expressed that he liked me, but when I told him I liked our mutual friend (MF) and we had gone out together, he flipped out. Even though MF had asked my ex-best friend if he liked me and for "permission" to date me, he acted like we both betrayed him. He said we were practically dating anyway because we hung out together a lot at school and maybe twice a month outside of school, he accused me of being racist for choosing MF over him (MF friend was the same race as me and he was not), told me I ruined his summer trip because I told him I needed a few days to process what was going on and didn't respond to his messages. He had a lot of self-esteem issues, yet he claimed that he was THE perfect match for me and "deserved to be treated better" when I told him I wanted space. He kept saying MF was a terrible person because of X, Y, and Z even though he never mentioned these things before.
Since we had tickets to an upcoming event together and I still wanted to try to be friends, I attempted to reconcile with him but it was extremely awkward. He still seemed angry that I did not like him back and kept asking if he ever had a chance, if not now, in the future. I told him I did not see him as more than a good friend. Nevertheless, he started showing he was interested in me by trying to hold my hand in public and trying to linger really close to my face. When we hugged in the car before I left, he would literally climb on top of me and press his body against mine in the passenger seat.
I stopped talking to him because it was too awkward and inappropriate, but it was really difficult because he was one of my closest friends and part of my friend group. Out of habit and loneliness, I would sometimes try to talk to him again but he would do the same thing. He would tell me he missed me and wanted to hold me, ask me why I never wanted to see him anymore, but insert snarky remarks about how I was treating him badly because he poured his heart out and I didn't reciprocate his feelings. Overall, he kept trying to make me feel guilty for not liking him back because he was "like, a really good guy."
What creates an incel or a nice guy?
Poor socialization would be the lion's share, I'd say, at least for incels. People who grow up ostracized by their peers never have the opportunity to properly develop their social skills, and taking the effort to rectify this can be logistically difficult in addition to the difficulties of trying to learn how to be properly social and play catch-up.
Some people do seem to just be born pricks or become them from an early age without anyone having alienated them.
As for Nice Guys, at least some of that is because of our own media when it comes to romance.